Thursday, November 21, 2019

An Online Discussion on Trump and Holiness


It all started, like most do, with a Facebook post.

"FLASHBACK, 2018" was its headline.  "Joe Biden Brags At CFR Meeting About Withholding Aid To Ukraine To Force Firing Of Prosecutor".

During our current contentions over the impeachment proceedings against President Trump, this article on RealClearPolitics.com attempted to provide a red herring to give the impression that while he was vice president, Joe Biden tried to do the same thing Democrats now accuse Trump of doing.  Except, of course, they aren't the same things in reality.  Biden the Vice President was simply conducting foreign policy without any expectation of personal benefit; he was acting on behalf of the American people.  Ostensibly, anyway.  On the other hand, Trump was pursuing his own personal political agenda.  There is a difference.  I will admit that I'm not sure if the difference is worth impeachment, but so much misinformation and outright obfuscation of facts is being disseminated about this case, I see a lot of folks jumping on bandwagons whose wheels are made of hot air.

So, those of you who know me well enough won't be surprised that I felt compelled to chime in and provide a rebuttal to this obviously misleading post.  What follows now is the bulk of a long string of comments sparked by my first observation.  And this isn't even everything that was discussed in our rambling string - I've omitted parts of it that veered off-topic, and an even more contentious part that continued between other participants long after I dropped out of it.

From what I can tell, all of the commentators, along with my friend who originally posted the link, claim to be Christ-followers.  But aside from that, we obviously have very different perspectives on how Christians are to function in the civic sphere.  And that troubles me deeply.

This was my first comment:  The current impeachment debate IS NOT whether it's OK to withhold state aid from a country that does or doesn't do stuff we want them to do. What's being debated is whether Trump threatened to withhold aid TO BENEFIT HIMSELF politically.

Pam: Actually, the two ARE related. It shows a double standard. Democrats have done and said MANY questionable things, yet they get a pass.

Me:  When do Democrats "get a pass"? Such partisan bickering is meaningless.

Pam:  Hillary or Biden and Obama have done worse things than just suggest an investigation and yet have not been put in the slammer. That’s a pass.

Me:  Trump isn't headed to any slammer either.

Pam:  The media never put Hillary or Obama through the wringer like they have with Trump. Obama was the worst and he was treated like a king.

Me:  With all due respect, one of the things I was hoping Trump would do was to follow-through on his pledge to re-investigate Hillary. But he wimped-out royally. I don't know how Obama was "worse", but my point remains - there's more than enough tit-for-tat between Democrats and Republicans - it's just that right now, the GOP doesn't like being in the hot seat.

Pam:  True. No hot seats would be better. If both sides could chill and enjoy the good economy it’d be better.

Me (in retrospect, I could have seized upon this rare point of agreement, and shut up.  But, alas, I did not):  True, but even a good economy isn't the mark of a good leader. It's not all about money. As a Christ-follower I believe it's a mistake to let Biblical teachings slide as long as we like the economy. Things have gotten so partisan it's easy to forget God has bigger purposes for us than good employment.

James:  Trump is absolutely going to prison, but nobody will indict him while he's president. That's why it's so important to him to win the next election.

Scott:  Trump will be re-elected and Democrats know it. That is why they are trying to impeach him. If they thought they had a chance of winning the Presidency they would not be trying to impeach him.

Pam:  Tim, which Bible teachings do you think have been sliding?? The first thing that comes to my mind is liberals push to marginalize Christians and their businesses; advocating for abortion etc etc. Those are definitely anti-Biblical policies that Republicans are NOT letting slide.

Me:  If I have to point out Bible passages to prove why Trump is unfit for office then Facebook is not a good medium for our conversation! ;-)

Rita:  Pam, we should not be surprised that evil exists in our world, but let's not broadly equate the sins committed by others as persecution of Christians.

Pam:  Some Christians in the US certainly are persecuted—maybe not physically, but legally and in the media. You must be choosing to ignore some very high profile cases in the news. I never compared it to the physical persecution of Christians in some other countries, but it certainly is persecution. Their jobs and livelihoods were ruined for no other reason than hatred of their religion and religious views.

Me:  Regarding persecution in the US, I presume that many of the folks on this string are cross-cultural missionaries to various parts of the world, so they have likely seen genuine persecution around the globe. Compared to our brothers and sisters in Christ who at this very moment are being tortured for Christ's sake in North Korea, China, and elsewhere, I doubt even the Colorado baker would take their mantle upon himself. In the US, from what I've seen, a lot of Christians bring negative media attention upon themselves with their own attitudes about different people groups. We are to speak the truth in love, and while we often do the first part well, we fail miserably at the second part. Additionally, with the legal structure we enjoy in our country, simply having a law come down "against" you can't necessarily be interpreted as "persecution" since we usually have appellate systems at our disposal to pursue further dialog.

Pam:  I never said it was exactly the same. But it is persecution of a sort cause it’s motivated by nothing more than hatred.

Me:  Yes, it is both unfortunate and dangerous for religious freedom in the US for the gay marriage lobby to continue picking on this small business, the Colorado cake baker. But gay marriage is not exclusively an orthodox Christian sin, it's also something many non-Christians, Muslims, and Jews disavow. That is why this is a legal challenge, but it is not classic persecution for following Christ. Still, during this battle, Christ-followers need to remember that our witness to the gay lobby needs to be above reproach.

Gary:  I would like to see your reasons why Trump is Biblically unfit for office.

Me:  Good grief!
1. He loves money.
2. He loves power.
3. He's consumed by his self-aggrandizement.
4. He's a serial adulterer.
5. He's talked in vulgar terms about his own daughter.
6. He's a serial bankruptcy case.
7. He lies incessantly
8. He's a bully
9. He's a misogynist
10. He's mocked the handicapped
11. He says he's nothing to confess to God (which means he's not saved)
12. He has vulgar language
13. He displays none of the Fruit of the Spirit
Shall I go on?

Pam:  Some of those are your view, some are exaggerations and some are just not true. For instance the thing about mocking the handicapped is not true—he did not know anything about his handicap and was just making fun of him with a motion he uses. They say 80% of men cheat, doesn’t make it right but many of the traits you mention could be anyone, including other politicians. Have you never read about past Presidents either? I agree that I wish we could have a well mannered person in the presidency, but then we elect someone who we think will best do the job. The job being running our country, not being a preacher. Different qualifications. I certainly didn’t see any better choice on the ballot. Please not Hillary or Biden! Sanders and Warren would ruin us financially.

Me:  None are exaggerations. They are all true. It is a lie that Trump did not know the reporter was handicapped. You have been fed partisan propaganda from Drudge and Rush. And you continue to want to argue that somebody like Trump is worth supporting. You compare people against other people, when we should be comparing against God's standards. And we wonder why the church today is losing its influence.

Pam:  And just WHO do you think was so wonderful by Gods standards that was on the ballot??? Since I don’t listen to or read Rush or Drudge, that inference of yours gets a gong. Frankly, it sounds like you think you are perfect and all of your points and comments are perfect. 😳. I have never said Trump was perfect, but I also know that all the media says is not either. And I can agree with his and most of the Republican policies. I compare it to a number of school administrators that I worked under who had terrible personal lives, etc., but were great administrators so I had no problem working under and with them. Again, WHO do you think would’ve been a better choice that was even a contender?

Me:  This past election, I voted for Scott Cubbler, a pro-life evangelical Republican living in the Houston area. I believe we need to honor God with our vote, and not vote based on whether the person for whom we vote will win. God is the One who installs leaders - He is sovereign and omnipotent. We cannot let the media or political parties tell us how to vote.

Pam:  Cubbler was a write-in? Maybe it made you feel better, but he never had a chance, so statistically you were wasting your vote. We don’t vote to honor! We vote to do our civic duty and try to elect someone to do a job. Certainly we shouldn’t let the media or parties influence us, but we still need to make the best choice of those given. A non-winner does no good.

Gary:  That's great - you prayerfully voted your conscience.  But how'd that strategy work out for Cubbler?  He didn't even move the needle.

Me:  Cubbler was on the ballot in 6 states; his strategy was to try and trigger an electoral college re-count. Your perspective is a common one derived from a misleading understanding of how Christ expects us to behave at the ballot box. Do you agree that God is the One Who ultimately ordains any leader? Do you agree that our chief purpose as a Christ-follower is to glorify God? We have the luxury of voting for leaders in the US, but the world's notion is to strategize for a winner. Christ followers have a higher responsibility, and that is to honor God with our vote. Winning isn't the end result; whether we seek to honor God is! Do you agree that God looks at our hearts more than our actions? He doesn't need us to "win" an election for Him. But He WANTS us to make choices that show we trust in Him.

Pam:  Your views are noble, but I believe misguided. Obviously do what you want; I will conduct my votes as I feel is wise. Your Cubbler didn’t affect the election in any way.

Me:  Perhaps I haven't made myself clear enough: I don't believe it's up to us to "win" at the polls. Christ-followers need to honor God by voting for people whose leadership qualities God characterizes as honorable. Nowhere in the Bible does God call us to win elections - that is a partisan notion that does not account for God's sovereignty. I knew Cubbler wouldn't win the election, but voting for him, I can still advocate for morality in our society. Folks who support Trump have lost all credibility when it comes to morality - and that's what the Devil was hoping for. So you won the battle, but you're losing the political war.

_____

PS - all the names, except for mine, have been changed